Talk:rotten to the core

RFD discussion: December 2023

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rotten to the core

SOP: rotten + to the core. PUC – 11:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

It's an analogy with apples. It's not sum of parts. —Soap— 12:26, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

And the 2nd definition could be idiomatic. Keep. DonnanZ (talk) 17:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

rotten alone already means "cruel, mean or immoral". PUC – 17:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

• Delete * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 04:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

• Weak delete. Lemming test: this idiom has entries in Merriam–Webster (“very bad or dishonest”) and dictionary.com (“Thoroughly bad”). The latter adds: “The idiom was first recorded in 1804.” It is a rather transparent idiom, though – especially if we add “corrupt, dishonest” to the figurative senses of stand-alone rotten. There are also plenty of uses of honest to the core,^[1][2][3] so listing rotten to the core as a common collocation should IMO suffice.  --Lambiam 17:51, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

It is possible that WT:JIFFY applies here, in other words, rotten to the core predates the shorter form to the core. The earliest non-literal uses of "to the core" that I have been able to find are "knowing himself to be rotten to the core" (1741) and "this government ... is rotten to the core" (1766). (Note, I also found this which purports to be from 1729, but since it is an account of a basketball match I am sure the date is wrong.) This, that and the other (talk) 12:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Having said all that, the real question is, would rotten to the core have passed RFD in 1750? I have my doubts. It's a fairly straightforward metaphor. Nobody would have any trouble understanding its meaning by looking up its constituent parts, even if used in a metaphorical context.

. This, that and the other (talk) 13:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

We're not writing a dictionary for people of the 18th century, TTO! Denazz (talk) 19:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, WT:JIFFY does explicitly ask us to evaluate whether the term "would have passed at some point in the history of the English language", so perhaps we are. (Sadly JIFFY doesn't then say we should write the def in authentic erly moderne Englisshe...) This, that and the other (talk) 06:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The work Davids Repentance; Or, a Plaine and Familiar Exposition on the Lj. Psalme, reportedly published in 1655,^[4] contains the phrase “rotten at the Core like Apples of Sodom” followed a few lines further down by “their hearts are rotten to the Core”.^[5] Not only does this push the earliest use back by about another century, but the explanation of the simile by explicily mentioning apples further supports the JIFFY theory, so now I'm definitely leaning to Keep.  --Lambiam 13:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Delete unless it passes WT:JIFFY. 2804:1B0:1901:5FD7:6060:15B5:AFC5:BD81 13:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Keep, unless it can be demonstrated that "to the core" was used prior to "rotten to the core". Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:26, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

¨ Kept, I'm satisfied with the evidence provided. PUC – 19:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)