Talk:negre

RFV discussion: March–July 2021

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negre

Old French entry was removed by @The Nicodene. Please discuss here and decide. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 16:08, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Really not sure what there is to discuss. "Negre" simply did not exist in Old French; it was borrowed later from Spanish. The very same source that the current wiki entry provides says so itself: "Empr. à l'esp. negro «personne de race noire» (xv^es., v. Cor.-Pasc. et Al.)", or in English "Borrowed from Spanish negro "black person" (15th century, cf. Corominas Pascual , among others)."

I can only assume whoever added 'negre' under Old French either cannot read French, and so didn't understand the source, or misunderstood what Old French means. (The late fifteenth century falls under Middle French). The Nicodene (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@The Nicodene It's just the usual procedure, if people find older attestations they can add them and raise objections here. As you say, that is unlikely in this case and so the entry will eventually be deleted. Entries aren't directly deleted if the problem is that their attestation is in doubt. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 16:33, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo Fair enough. I suppose the entry can simply be corrected rather than deleted outright.The Nicodene (talk) 16:41, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@The Nicodene, it looks to me that the current Middle French entry is acceptable. Do you agree? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge Yes, I think so too. The Nicodene (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC) The Nicodene (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• RFV resolved. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:08, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Nom/acc.

@Mahagaja To be clear, Occitan negre can equally well derive from nigrum or niger, as far as the sound-changes are concerned. (Cf. vitrum (“glass”) > Occit. veire.) Considering that Old Occitan had a nominative/accusative (cas sujet/cas régime) case system, negre might as well reflect a confluence of the Latin forms. Nicodene (talk) 20:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: In etymology sections, it makes more sense to say that one entire lexical item (as represented by its lemma form) is derived from another entire lexical item (as represented by its lemma form), rather than saying a specific form is derived from another specific form. Thus, we're not saying that the specific form negre comes from the specific form niger or nigrum; rather, we're saying that the Occitan word for 'black' (whose "front man" happens to be the form negre) comes from the Latin word for 'black' (whose "front man" happens to be the form niger). This is why I have long been opposed to using Latin infinitives in the etymology sections of Romance verbs, namely that we should be using the lemma form (which for Latin verbs is the 1st person singular present active indicative, e.g. amō) rather than the specific form that the modern Romance lemma forms happen to derive from (the infinitive, e.g. amāre). I'd only make an exception in instances where the lemma form comes from an unexpected source (for example, the numerous western Romance personal names like Carlos and Charles that come from the Latin nominative rather than the usual accusative) or in cases of suppletion (it makes sense to say that specific forms of ir and aller come from specific forms of Latin verbs). —Mahāgaja · talk 21:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja I'm not aware of a single Romance etymological dictionary that specifies Latin verbs in their 1SG present indicative form, so you'd be going against thoroughly-established practice there. Supplying the infinitive, while still linking to the Latin lemma form, has quite strong support here as well, and you'd need a stronger argument than 'I don't like the link displaying a non-lemma' to change it. Anyway, it does not matter for negre in particular, so I'll leave it as-is. Nicodene (talk) 21:33, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

There are definitely a lot of Romance verb etymologies that give the Latin verb in the lemma form. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja Any example of a noteworthy Romance etymological dictionary that does so? Nicodene (talk) 21:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)