Talk:doom

RFV discussion

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Rfv-sense

1. A feeling of danger, impending danger, darkness or despair.

Can doom really be a feeling? --Hekaheka 09:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that "feeling" is an "aspect" of the meaning, though another word might be better. It might be worth a separate sense.

"Doom" often occurs in the construction "feeling of X" as do more clear-cut "feeling" terms like "dread". "Doom" often coordinates with "feeling" words like "gloom", "dread", "hopelessness", "dismay", "self-doubt", "pessimism", "anguish", "despondency", "doubt", and "desperation" and even opposing feelings like "joy", "hope", and "gratitude". Does that seem like evidence of the appropriateness of "feeling"? I can find citations illustrating any of these as well as standalone usage that seems to treat it as a "feeling". What would be better? DCDuring TALK 10:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I have not yet found a dictionary that records this "feeling" aspect of the word's usage. That means we would certainly need good cites. DCDuring TALK 14:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I have the "feeling" sense cited. It might merit {{literary}}. DCDuring TALK 17:25, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced yet. In the first quote a feeling is expressed by words "air of doom" rather than by "doom" alone, and in the third by "feeling of ... impending doom". In the second quote the word "doom" appears to conform with the definition as it could be replaced with "feeling of danger" but, on the other hand, the usage might also be interpreted as a literary device, especially as it is preceded by two single-word sentences. --Hekaheka 05:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Btw, the other quotes are very clarifying, thanks for them. --Hekaheka 05:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I quite enjoyed the satisfaction of getting citations that illustrated and put in context the senses and helped me gain some understanding of the evolution of senses. I think that Widsith must experience that satisfaction often because he has done a better job than I with many more words, especially those of Old English origin. I look forward to his review and improvement of the entry.

"Feeling" is used to include more than the traditional emotions and moods. For example, four of the most common collocations in the "feeling of X" construction are "deja vu", "belonging (to)", "accomplishment", and "control". In each case, introspection suggests that there is an important emotional accompaniment to the possible objective reality. But one can have the "feeling" without the reality and many people seem to ascribe more importance to the feeling than the reality.

"Feeling of X" is a common enough construction with "feeling" words for X, as is "air of X" and "sense of X". In such constructions "feeling" licenses almost all feeling words and not too many non-emotion words. For example, one can't readily have a "feeling of awareness", where one can have "sense of awareness". OTOH, it also licenses clauses beginning with "that" which are often hard to view as feelings in themselves.

Would examples of the form "one [feel] doom" be more convincing? Would you prefer coordination with feeling words? DCDuring TALK 12:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I have provided 3 cites of the "[feel] doom" construction, one from a current newspaper. Unsurprisingly, "feel X" doesn't seem to permit much of anything other than a "feeling" word. Though it is not abundant, I could find more. I don't think this can be taken as literary. Judging from the apparent absence of such citations except recently, this may be a recently emerged use. It may have emerged from the "feeling of" and "[feel] doom V-ing" constructions. DCDuring TALK 12:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope not to be ignorant or annoying. There are other words which fall obviously into this category. (feeling of) Betrayal, (felt like) nonesense, (feeling of) consensus, (felt like) disaster, etc. etc. Out of a dozen or so I have found none to be listed as having a *feeling* sense. I agree with feeling that a feeling in this sense equates an emotion. Doom and categorically similar words are further defined by faliure to equate "an emotion" although used in such a conjunction i.e. The feeling of impending doom, for instance, is a description of "apprehension of doom" where the emotion is in the place of the word *feeling* and doom in the place of the word *doom*. The emotion represented has not been named. Note: The common usage is "impending doom", right? Searching the internet, 6m hits for "feeling of impending doom" then 45m hits for "feeling of doom", random quote, "I dont mean to make light of your situation mate, and I suggest you consult your gp about this asap, but someone has to say this. Stay the fuck away from PF on a Saturday night and you feeling of doom will sharp go away" Note: the listing order on the apprehension entry leave a lot to be desired. RTG 16:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that "feeling of" is not a powerful enough discriminator of "feeling" words, words that can be defined as "feelings" of some kind. A noun that comes directly after a form of the verb "feel" without a following verbal expression (eg, "trouble coming on") is almost always a sensation, an emotion, or some mental state. The latter two are probably includable in "feeling".

The other nouns that commonly appear after forms of feel are: pain, tears, pangs (sensation); relief, guilt, sympathy, shame, pity, anger, compassion, fear (emotion); pressure (sensation or emotion); welcome, part (of) (probably emotion), but not necessarily ordinary nouns in all regards. There are other nouns that are clearly feeling words, but not always considered emotions, like "life" and "power". DCDuring TALK 18:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The newer quotations seem to support DC's idea of this being a recently emerged use. However, the first and third quotation still seem more like examples of senses #4 or #5 to me. What about moving them there? --Hekaheka 05:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the grammar is not sufficiently supportive of the "feeling" sense given the other long-standing senses. I have moved them. DCDuring TALK 09:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Rfv removed. --Hekaheka 09:34, 9 January 2011 (UTC)