Talk:گون
Latest comment: 4 months ago by Exarchus in topic Persian classical pronunciation
Persian classical pronunciation[edit]
@Fay Freak Hi, I see you changed (almost 4 years ago) the classical Persian pronunciation here from 'gūn' to 'gōn', calling it "Another blunder in Steingass". I suppose 'gōn' is correct for the early Classical language, but I don't think it's a "blunder" from Steingass to give 'gūn' as he simply passes on what his sources say, and those are Indo-Persian (according to a comment here by user 'fdp'). And according to the Wikipedia definition, that variety is also Classical Persian. So shouldn't 'gūn' be added as an alternative? Exarchus (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- Would there be a not too complicated way to figure out where this word occurs in Classical authors like Saadi/Hafez, and see what it rhymes with? Exarchus (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- BTW, I noticed that 'A concise Pahlavi dictionary' actually gives "N gūn", and this is intended as "the earliest New Persian" (page xvii). So I think I'll simply change it to 'gún'. Exarchus (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Exarchus: Doesn’t match the Ottoman. It may be more complicated than either. Apart from the ō → ū movement around the 19th century and those supposed to have taken place between Middle Persian and New Persian (as you do now suppose in this case, after the Middle Persian vowel is supported by e.g. Old Armenian գոյն (goyn) and Arabic جَوْن (jawn)), there may have been cases where it changed somewhere in the 13th–15th century, when Turkic already had a lot of the borrowings but Indian languages were yet to have them: Talk:بوییدن. The same is the case for ē → ī, and both these front and back vowels even now vary regionally across Afghanistan, not equally with all words. I have not been too invested in Persian to wrap my head around it but wee see that this impression developed not more than 4 years ago after repeated juggling languages and resources. Fay Freak (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed that Ottoman Turkish has 'o', and I don't know enough about Turkish to really comment on this, but I noticed that آبانوز (abanoz) also had a change from 'u' to 'o'. And I suppose that MacKenzie has a source when he writes 'gūn' for New Persian (although of course, there may have been regional variation). Exarchus (talk) 20:22, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Exarchus: Doesn’t match the Ottoman. It may be more complicated than either. Apart from the ō → ū movement around the 19th century and those supposed to have taken place between Middle Persian and New Persian (as you do now suppose in this case, after the Middle Persian vowel is supported by e.g. Old Armenian գոյն (goyn) and Arabic جَوْن (jawn)), there may have been cases where it changed somewhere in the 13th–15th century, when Turkic already had a lot of the borrowings but Indian languages were yet to have them: Talk:بوییدن. The same is the case for ē → ī, and both these front and back vowels even now vary regionally across Afghanistan, not equally with all words. I have not been too invested in Persian to wrap my head around it but wee see that this impression developed not more than 4 years ago after repeated juggling languages and resources. Fay Freak (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)